The Celebration (1998)

[00:00:00] Speaker A: Foreign. [00:00:22] Speaker B: Hello, everyone, and welcome back to. [00:00:24] Speaker C: The final girl on 6th Avenue podcast. My name is Carolyn Smith helmer and I'm 6th Avenue's very own Final Girl. And today we are going to be talking about 1998 film the Celebration, directed by Thomas Vinterberg, also written by Thomas Vinterberg and starring Ulrich Thompson, which if you're a fan of Danish cinema, you will recognize both of those names. [00:00:54] Speaker A: This is not necessarily a horror, but it does have some horrifying aspects to it. And as with all, you know, Danish cinema and European cinema, you know, there are some topics that are covered here. [00:01:09] Speaker C: That are not usually covered in American film the same way. So I want to highlight, you know. [00:01:17] Speaker A: Just that before we start, it is considered to be a drama and it is, you know, there are some aspects of this film that are funny, but there are a lot of aspects of this film that are not funny at all. So let's get started by talking about the Celebration, which is anything but. IMDb has our description of the film. [00:01:42] Speaker C: Here at a patriarch's 60th birthday party. [00:01:46] Speaker A: So some unpleasant family truths are revealed. That is definitely one way to make an introduction here. So without wasting any more time, let's get right into it. [00:02:03] Speaker C: Our film starts with our main character. His name is Christian, and he's walking to this hotel, this, you know, large estate that is being utilized for the his dad's 60th birthday. And along his walk, he actually sees his brother Michael driving by in his family car with his wife and their, their children inside. And what's funny is that they, the two brothers, like, they greet each other very affectionately. And then Michael literally makes his wife and kids get out of the car and walk the rest of the way so that way Christian can ride in the car with him. [00:02:48] Speaker B: Interesting play. [00:02:49] Speaker C: I can't say that that's something that I would have done, but that is, you know, that's what's going on here. That's just the man that Michael is. Things are already off to not the best start, you might say. [00:03:06] Speaker A: So as Christmas, Christian and Michael, you know, arrive at this, you know, estate, hotel, etc, we find out that this is owned by the family, right? So they come inside and they are happy that they beat their dad there. [00:03:23] Speaker C: Because Michael was actually not invited to this birthday party, this family and friends, you know, gathering. He wasn't invited. So he goes up to the front desk and is like, look, we have issues with the new staff here. Just give us, you know, these two rooms that we're asking for and we won't make a big deal about it, but, you know, he's not technically invited, so he's not on the guest list with the desk. Apparently, when Michael drinks, things tend to. [00:03:55] Speaker A: Go a little awry. [00:03:58] Speaker C: So Christian, you know, is very put together, very presentable. He owns two restaurants in Paris, and. [00:04:06] Speaker A: You know, he is here to save the day. Right? [00:04:09] Speaker C: So we think so anyways, Christian basically gives his word to the front desk person that he will talk to their dad if they just agree to give Michael a room because he has brought his kids and his wife with him. So it's not really like they can turn back now. Shortly thereafter, their sister Helene arrives, and she is scolding Michael for, you know, having the nerve, basically, to show up at this event because the three of them actually had a sister, and their sister died, and Michael did not show face at the funeral. So she is clearly upset. But in the spirit of family and in the spirit of making this, you know, know, a pleasant experience, they're going. [00:04:55] Speaker A: To try to, I don't know, get along for the weekend, I guess. [00:05:00] Speaker C: As the guests continue and, you know, to arrive to the venue, the family is kind of outside greeting everybody, kind of acting, you know, putting on the. The safe space, the safe show. Right. And it's interesting here, and this will become more important later, but Michael and Helene are actually standing in the doorway greeting, and before someone walks through the door, they are actually, like, poking at each other physically. And she kind of, like, pushes Michael, and he comes back and, like, tries to, like, pinch her nipple, I think, is what he's trying to do. It's kind of unclear, but she makes it a point to say, like, no, seriously, don't do that. I'm your sister. So. So no. Dad has been out hunting all day, and as he, you know, is finishing up and getting ready for the evening, he has Christian actually come and see him. And they talk about, you know, they're basically talking about Christian's life and how, you know, his dad doesn't ever hear from him, and he reads about him in the newspaper, but he's really hoping that, you know, Christian will just get married and move back home and have some kids and just, you know, make everybody happy, you know, telling him, you know, basically what you're doing doesn't matter because we just want you at home. But right before they head out to go back and join the party, dad makes sure to ask Christian to say a few words about their. Their sister that had passed. And in doing so, he makes it a point to tell Christian that He wouldn't be able to say anything about their sister or his daughter because all he would do is cry. He doesn't seem like he really means it, but like, it's interesting. It's an interesting dynamic. So anyways, they all join the rest of the party and whenever they enter, you know, the, the hall, the grand hall seating area, so to speak, everyone is singing Happy Birthday to the, this patriarch and Pia, one of the, the housekeepers, you know, and waitresses, and they serve in like the very feminine capacity within this, this estate. [00:07:35] Speaker A: She, she finds Christian, you know, from within the crowd and leaves the crowd comes around and makes sure to greet him with a giant kiss. [00:07:45] Speaker C: And he kind of is not super thrilled with her, but like, you can tell he's just kind of like trying to keep his distance, so to speak. She ends up coming back to his room with him and she's laying on the bed and kind of like writhing around and he's just sitting in a chair looking at her. Helene goes and gets Lars, the front desk person, and is like, hey, you guys gave me the room that was assigned to my dead sister. So like, it's pretty spooky in here. And they go inside the room and they show it and it's literally just everything is covered in white sheets. And she's like, dude, this is scary. Like, I don't like this. So they come in and they together are starting to remove all of the white sheets that are covering all of. [00:08:38] Speaker A: The, you know, the furniture. [00:08:40] Speaker C: And there's a bathroom in the room. And she's like, hey, this is where my sister died. Maybe I should just have another room. I just, I don't know about this. And she gets this kind of eerie feelings. She's getting bad vibes and Lars is getting like extra freaked out by this whole thing. [00:09:02] Speaker A: He's convinced that Helene is crazy and. [00:09:05] Speaker C: That, you know, this room is like haunted. We get a little bit more insight. [00:09:10] Speaker A: Into, you know, Michael and his wife's marriage. They actually have an all out brawl essentially because. [00:09:20] Speaker C: His wife, you know, is supposed to pack the suitcases and she didn't bring the right color shoes. And, you know, Michael makes a huge fit about it. And then they proceed to have sex. [00:09:32] Speaker B: After. [00:09:34] Speaker C: In Christian's room. [00:09:35] Speaker A: Pia has decided that she wants to take a bath. [00:09:39] Speaker C: So she kind of attempts to seduce Christian, but he really like, can't be bothered by her right now. Like, he's just like off in another world, but also like at some kind. [00:09:56] Speaker B: Of peace with everything. [00:09:58] Speaker C: And Pia is kind of like a little Disappointed that she's not getting what she wants from Christian. In Helene's room, her and Lars actually find a note that was left by their dead sister. And as soon as they find it. [00:10:15] Speaker A: She starts to cry and Lars dismisses himself. She takes the note and puts it in an empty pill bottle in her, like, toiletries bag. [00:10:26] Speaker C: Michael goes to meet his dad in. [00:10:28] Speaker A: The drawing room, and dad makes sure to tell Michael that, you know, the lodge has been interested in having one of the sons join, and Christian is not interested, but he wants to ask Michael if he is ready to become a freemason. Interesting. I don't see Michael as a freemason, but he's flattered to have been invited, which good for him. [00:11:00] Speaker C: They all finally make their way up. [00:11:02] Speaker A: Into, you know, the cocktail pre dinner gathering. And everyone is, you know, making small talk and interacting together, except for Christian, who really only responds to Pia when she talks to him. And she makes sure to point like, hey, like, I was naked out of the bath and you fell asleep. [00:11:26] Speaker C: Aren't you sleeping well? And, you know, he ensures her that he only sleeps well with her, which is really nice for her to hear. I'm sure that there's definitely a very special, special bond that the two of them have together. They make their way into, you know, the dining room for dinner. And it is an exquisite meal, to say the least. It is. This place is absolutely beautiful. This type of wealth is, like, almost unimaginable to me. But it's very formal. They're all dressed very formally. They are being served each course, you know, full weight, staff, everything like that. It's really a beautiful way to celebrate a birthday. This is Christian's opportunity to be social. [00:12:20] Speaker A: And to shine here. [00:12:23] Speaker C: So he. [00:12:26] Speaker A: Makes sure to stand up in front of everyone and be, you know, very pleasant. And he's like, look, since I am the oldest boy, I do firmly believe that it is my duty to make. [00:12:39] Speaker C: The first toast of the evening. And so he actually has written two. [00:12:44] Speaker A: Toasts and he asks his dad to pick which one he'd like to read. He picks one that is the color green. [00:12:57] Speaker C: And Christian is like, oh, that's, that's a good one. That's an interesting choice. He says it's kind of a home truth speech. I call it Dad's Bath. And everyone is kind of laughing, chuckling, except for dad. So Christian makes a speech about how, you know, he remembers when, you know, their family bought this place and how. [00:13:23] Speaker A: You know, they were all so excited. And him and his twin sister Linda, their dead sister, which is very sad. Would, you know, run around this place and would have all of the fun and get into all of the trouble that, you know, young kids do, and that they just had the best time together and that they would get caught doing these mischievous things, but nothing bad would ever happen to them except for once or twice or a few times in which they would go in with their dad when he said that he needed to take a bath. He'd lock the door, lower the blinds, take off all of his clothes, and expect Linda and Christian to do the same. I know what you're probably thinking, and that's exactly what's going on. Yes. Christian makes the announcement to everyone that in having his. Him and his sister Linda take off all their clothes with, you know, in a private room with the door locked and the blinds lowered, that their father would rape them, would sexually abuse them on a green couch. He goes on to say that, you know, in the months after his sister died, he realized that their dad was a very clean man with all of those baths, and he thought he'd share it with the rest of the family. Baths in the summer, winter, spring, fall. Everyone should know in this room that my father is a very clean man. Imagine watching a long life and watching your kids grow up and Michael's, you know, Michael's children, you're your grandchildren, and, you know, we've all come this way to celebrate your 60th birthday. So thanks for all the good years and happy birthday. [00:15:27] Speaker C: He does this joyfully and without remorse. Honestly, everyone at the table is outstandingly confused. [00:15:41] Speaker A: They're like, okay, that must have been a joke. [00:15:48] Speaker C: And they just kind of let it go, including their father. But their father does appear to kind of be pretending to let this go because he doesn't really want, like, to pay to pay this any mind, like, to take this seriously. [00:16:06] Speaker A: And so after Christian does this, you know, and a very much older, you know, elderly family friend or, you know, family member stands up to give a speech in which, you know that they're not going to remember because they don't even know what planet they're on. But Christian says that this is his opportunity to leave. And he goes back into the kitchen to say hi to his. His best friend. And they've been friends since they were little. It's actually the chef who is preparing the meal for the party tonight. And so he says he has a plane to catch and he has to leave, but that he wanted to say hi to everybody and, you know, just check in. [00:16:50] Speaker C: The chef makes sure to let him. [00:16:52] Speaker A: Know that congratulations, you, you know, you said your speech, and the battle is won. Nothing changed. So how do you feel, basically, making him feel guilty for, like, saying this, which, you know, like, I don't know why you would feel guilty for saying this if it happened to you. Right after the, you know, man who was born in the Jurassic period is done making his speech and everyone applauds, Helene makes sure to stand up at the table and let everybody know that. [00:17:30] Speaker C: You know, she hopes that nobody took Christian seriously because. [00:17:35] Speaker A: What he said wasn't true. [00:17:37] Speaker C: She says this because she makes sure to let everybody know that, like, she. [00:17:43] Speaker A: Should know this isn't true, right, because this didn't happen to her, basically. Whatever. [00:17:50] Speaker C: Anyway, she apologizes for interrupting and, you know, says it was just the shock of everything, that, like, I didn't say anything sooner, so I'm sorry. Kim. The chef is, like, very confrontational with Christian, and he's like, look, in two minutes, your dad is going to come down the stairs into the kitchen and say, I think everybody likes the food. And he'll tell me that it's time for the main course and he'll have some bitters, and you'll see on the dot, he comes down to the kitchen. [00:18:21] Speaker A: Says that he thinks everybody liked the food and he wants to have some bitters with his son. Dad tells the staff that they can all, you know, have some bitters themselves if they want, and then to put it away. He then asks Christian to come and talk with him privately in, you know, this, like, wine cellar type room in. In an offshoot of the kitchen, and tells him, you know, what you talked about back there? I don't recall that at all. I don't remember that at all. My memory is fading. Me, I'm assuming it was probably my age. [00:19:00] Speaker C: You'll have to help me. What happened exactly? [00:19:04] Speaker A: When confronted with this, Christian is like, you know what? I'm sorry. It was probably me who got it wrong because, you know, I'm just a bit on edge right now with work being so busy and with the death of my twin sister and, you know, it's not like I haven't been going through a lot. And he's like, but just forget it. And dad says, well, what you said is a crime. Like, we'll have to call the police. So Christian's like, you know what? No, don't do that. Just forget it. I'm not sleeping well. I feel weird. I'm sorry. Hope things are going well upstairs. And dad says, yeah, everything's fine. It takes a lot more than what you said to shake them. [00:19:50] Speaker D: Like, okay. [00:19:53] Speaker C: Weird, weird interaction, right? But, like, you can definitely see the power dynamic between the two of them at play here with this. So dad goes back upstairs. [00:20:05] Speaker A: Kim addresses Christian while he's smoking a cigarette to say, yeah, you know. [00:20:14] Speaker C: I was right. [00:20:15] Speaker A: And Christian, like, obediently almost gets up. He's like a robot, right? Like, he gets up and he walks out of the kitchen and he goes back to the table to sit down again. And the same man who fucking gave a speech before is doing it again. [00:20:32] Speaker C: And everybody's just like, oh, my God, when is this going to end? For the love of God, please make it stop. [00:20:40] Speaker A: This man doesn't even know what he's. [00:20:41] Speaker C: Talking about in the kitchen, Kim. [00:20:45] Speaker A: And, you know, a few members of the staff are a little worried because they're like, we really don't know what Christian is planning here. We really don't know. We have no idea what's going on. But back in the dining room, they sing He's a Jolly Good Fellow to the man of the evening, you know, because he certainly deserves that. And that's basically how the night's going. Things are not going well in the kitchen. They basically come to the agreement that they're going to continue to serve all of the guests, you know, alcohol. And they're also going to ensure that people don't leave by going having Michelle and Pia, two of the housekeeper, you know, type staff, go into all of the rooms of the guests and steal the car keys because they're concerned that, like, if Christian continues to act out in this way or if anybody took any of that seriously, that, like, people are going to start leaving and then dad is going to get really upset and it's going to be this whole thing. We have a small bit of somewhat comedic but highly racist, you know, relief in the film in which Helene has invited her boyfriend to come and, you know, be part of this party. He is an American black man, and as you may, you might suspect, you might have already thought of this. Everybody in the room is white, right? They're Danish, so they are white, white, white, white, white. And Michael sees this taxi pull up with this, you know, young, good looking black man inside, and he immediately goes out to confront him, to basically try to get him to leave until Helene comes out and is like, yo, that's my fucking boyfriend. What the hell, man? Like, stop being rude. She even goes as far as to tell Michael that he's a Nazi. This is how intense these interactions get between this family. Like, it's absolutely wild. Helene brings her boyfriend in to meet, you know, her mother, and the two, you know, go to join the. The dinner, right? And Christian is like, oh, hey, this is a really great opportunity for me to talk again because it went so well the first time. Let me just do it again. [00:23:18] Speaker C: So he stands up and he says, forgive me for disturbing you again, but I forgot the most important detail. We're here for my dad's birthday, not. [00:23:28] Speaker A: All kinds of other stuff. And I led you up the wrong path earlier. I'd like to make amends by proposing a toast to my father. So if you'd all please stand up, I would so appreciate that. [00:23:41] Speaker C: People are praising him like, good job, Christian. [00:23:43] Speaker D: You know, you're gonna fix this. [00:23:47] Speaker C: So he stands up. [00:23:48] Speaker A: Everyone stands up. They all raise their glasses, and he says, here's to the man who killed my sister. Here's to a murderer. [00:24:01] Speaker C: Their dad stands up and storms out and is like, oh, my God. This like, I'm done. I want to smoke a cigarette. [00:24:07] Speaker A: We gotta go. [00:24:08] Speaker C: And Michael is kind of trying to be, like, the good guy here and try to, like, you know, know, fix the vibe. [00:24:15] Speaker A: And so he, you know, goes to the piano, and he's like, play something right fucking now. Nobody's leaving. You know, people, the guests are saying, like, oh, we just got here. We should probably just stay a little while. Like, it would be rude to leave now. So things are already, you know, not going well. [00:24:34] Speaker D: And. [00:24:36] Speaker A: Their dad actually makes it a point to tell this guy, whose name is Helmuth, who is a German man who has integrated himself into Danish high society and has somehow become, you know, a sort of, like, son figure to. To the dad here. They're smoking together, and the dad tells him to make sure that nobody goes home. [00:24:59] Speaker C: People are trying to leave, and they're actually confronting Lars, the front desk person. [00:25:04] Speaker A: Because they're like, hey, we need a taxi. [00:25:07] Speaker C: The. [00:25:07] Speaker A: There's 800,000 people in here, and we all need a taxi. You know why? Because we can't find our fucking car keys. Because Michelle and Pia went in and stole all the car keys out of everybody's rooms. [00:25:23] Speaker C: Now tensions are already high, right? [00:25:27] Speaker A: And so Michelle takes this opportunity in front of Michael and, you know, his wife, to ask Michael to come and speak privately in a bathroom. And she's like, look, you promised me. Last year you made a promise to me, and now you won't even give me the time of day. And he's like, oh, my God, I've got my wife here. Shut the fuck up. And Michelle Is like, oh, well, that's funny, because she's never been that important before. Do you know that I got pregnant? And he's like, no, had no idea. But she's like, oh, okay. Well, it's okay. You don't have to worry. Like, I got rid of it. I just thought you should know. Michael is off his rocker again at. [00:26:15] Speaker C: This point, and it's just like, dude. [00:26:17] Speaker A: I can't do this. Like, my dad's bathroom, we're in here together like it's his birthday. And, like, this is just. This is horrible. Like, I, I, I. I can't do this right now. Everybody is making everything worse. So he tells her to pack her. He throws money at her, and he tells her to go home. She's like, look, you're as sick in the head as your dad is. And he. [00:26:50] Speaker C: He slaps her. [00:26:52] Speaker D: He slaps her and, you know, throws. [00:26:55] Speaker C: Her around a little bit. [00:26:56] Speaker A: It's terrible. And then he just leaves. Like he's crazy, too. Honestly, Michael and dad are fucking crazy. [00:27:05] Speaker D: Whatever. [00:27:06] Speaker A: This family is just not. [00:27:08] Speaker C: Not. [00:27:08] Speaker A: It's not good. Now that everybody's left the dining room, though, Christian is like, oh, perfect. Like, now I get to eat. So he's in there alone eating, and. [00:27:20] Speaker C: Dad comes in and is like, what. [00:27:23] Speaker A: If I take the opportunity to say a couple words about you and about how sick you were as a kid and about the way that you would, you know, spoil things for other kids by burning their toys in front of them and how warped you've always been and that we had to go extricate you from a sanatorium because you were sick in the head and pumped full of medicine. And, like, you are not good with women. And, you know, you. There's so little man in you. And I could make a speech about you and your sister. What do you say to that? Didn't she ever say goodbye to you, Christian? Card, letter, Nothing. [00:28:11] Speaker C: I mean, this is about as cold as it gets, right? [00:28:15] Speaker D: And so he's like, look, for the. [00:28:17] Speaker A: Rest of us, we all got something you didn't, Christian. You know why? Because you left. You left as usual. You always leave. So, no, you didn't get a goodbye. You left your sick sister alone. She kept asking for you and rushing to the phone every time it rang, but never once was it you. You were only interested in yourself and your sick mind. And now you come back and you try to destroy this family. And you know, your mom, honestly, she thinks you should go. [00:28:47] Speaker C: She doesn't want to see you. Just wants nothing to do with You. [00:28:53] Speaker A: Helmuth, makes it a point to, you know, now be like, oh, well, now that none of you can find your car keys, and now that you can't leave, why don't we go back in and finish dinner, because I'm hungry. [00:29:04] Speaker C: And, you know, Christian never left the dinner table, so. So he's been ready for dinner this whole time. And what's really interesting here is that, you know, Helene's boyfriend kind of sits next to him and is very kind. [00:29:22] Speaker A: And Pia is also very kind to him. And at the table, Christian really just, you know, starts to tear up and kind of break down. And Helene's boyfriend is really, like, very kind and soft with him. And it's really a special moment, honestly. And, of course, what good would a mother and wife be if she did. [00:29:43] Speaker C: Not stand up and say a few. [00:29:45] Speaker A: Kind words about her husband? She basically expresses her appreciation for the beautiful life that she believes that they've all had, and about how, you know, he infinitely cares for his family and that he has given her everything that a wife could ever dream of, which. [00:30:09] Speaker D: Of course, is what every man wants. [00:30:11] Speaker A: To hear right from their spouse. Like, everybody wants to hear that from their spouse. That's beautiful. She talks about Michael's, you know, shortcomings in his life. Michael is the youngest, and she talks about how, like, they sent him off, too, culinary school in Switzerland, and he went to boarding school, and he went to a school on a ship and all these things, but he never did become a chef. So nevertheless, he has provided them with three beautiful grandchildren, and for that, they are appreciative. Helene, you know, they refer to her as the family loner and that she wanted to be a singer when she grew up, and she had joined a group called the Young Socialists and has always just kind of, like, done her own thing. And that's exactly what she's done and exactly what she will continue to do. She now has become an anthropologist, and even though they'd hoped that she would go to law school, they're still very proud of her. To Christian, you know, everyone's favorite boy today. She talks about how he was really creative as a child and was always. [00:31:34] Speaker C: A good storyteller and that she thought he'd make a really wonderful author one day. And, you know, she talks about how he had this, like, loyal companion, this imaginary friend when he was younger, and. [00:31:52] Speaker A: That they were, you know, inseparable. They always agreed. They always had fun together, as you do with your, like, imaginary friends. [00:32:02] Speaker C: But, you know, Christian, it's really important. [00:32:06] Speaker A: To be able and Healthy to be able to distinguish fact from fiction. And that, of course, you can be angry with your dad of. We all are. I am sometimes. Right. But that has to be, you know, sorted out in private. And telling a story like you've done today, however exciting they may be, is a little bit much. And she says, I think your imaginary. [00:32:34] Speaker C: Friend has been with you today, and I think that the both of you. [00:32:38] Speaker A: Have upset your father and that it would be appropriate if you gave an apology, and it won't detract from anything if you do choose to follow through with that apology. So please, Christian, stand up. After he looks at his mom in a way that you can only describe as vengeful, he's like, you know what? Sometimes we get the things that we ask for in life. And you asked me to stand up, so that is exactly what I will do. He waits until she is, like, almost completely in tears before he stands up and he says, oh, I'm so sorry. [00:33:18] Speaker C: To disturb you all again, but I feel it's appropriate to let you know. [00:33:23] Speaker A: That in 1974, my mother came actually into the study and saw her son on all fours and her husband with no pants on. [00:33:38] Speaker C: I'm sorry that you saw me like that. [00:33:40] Speaker A: Right. But, you know, your husband told you to get out, and you did. [00:33:48] Speaker C: Isn't that funny? He ends this little charade again, which. [00:33:55] Speaker A: I. I hesitate to call it a charade, but it's. It's rather performative, the way he's going about it. Even though everything he's saying is true, right? Like, everything he's saying is true. I just want to get that out of the way. He tells her, I'm sorry you're so hypocritical and corrupt that I hope you die. I'm sorry that you're all such. And that you listen to her. And at this point, Michael is like, nope, we're done. We're done. We're done. You got to get out. And he. He's like, look, this is my turn to get you the out and be dad's favorite. So they. They. They try to get him to leave. Like, Michael and these two other guys, they try to get him out. They drag him out, and Michael and Christian end up having a fight, which, you know, sooner, you know, starts to involve the other men in the group. And, like, they get him out of the front door, which is basically all they wanted to do, and they lock it, and they think that that means that they've, you know, succeeded, but they're such dumbasses that they didn't actually lock the door. So he just, like, walks back up the steps and comes right back in. This time, he comes back in. Fucking pissed is the only way to describe this. He decides that, you know, upon entering the dining room again, that he needs to continue on. [00:35:26] Speaker C: So he's like, I'm so sorry. [00:35:27] Speaker A: I, you know, was interrupted. But my. My mother, right, My loyal witness, in 1974, you entered the study and saw my dad's dick rubbing my hair. You bastard. Now dad is, like, fed up. Get him out of here. Don't want to see him anymore. And he tells everybody in the room that, like, it's so sad because he's so unhealthy. Like, what if you were. If you were innocent of these things that you're being accused of? Like, you would just. You would be really upset about it, right? Like, you wouldn't just be ignoring it. Like, you would be really upset. So Michael and the other two guys, they kick him out again. And this time, they're dragging him, right? They're not just doing the door where they, like, don't lock it all the way. They actually go as far as to take Christian all the way out, like, into a wooded area. And they're gonna leave him there. Like, they're gonna tie him up and leave him there because they just want this to end. And it's so interesting because his own brother, Christian's own brother, like, won't even entertain the fact that this might be true. And he's so angry with Christian for saying any of this. [00:36:56] Speaker D: They leave Christian. [00:36:57] Speaker A: In the woods tied to a tree. Fine. Michael comes back in to the party. He finds Helene. Helene is like, can you please explain to me where my brother is? Like, where did he go? Michael tells her that he went home. He's very sorry. [00:37:17] Speaker C: Whatever. [00:37:20] Speaker A: He lies. Like, he did, he did. He just wants to protect everything and for this to go away in the kitchen, right? You know, because Michael and his two. His two buddies in this endeavor have decided that they need to lock every door to, you know, any way of entering back into this. This building. And so one of the guys goes into the kitchen and tells Kim we need to lock the back door. So Kim is like, yeah, no worries. Like, we'll go back there together. So Kim, he takes the guy back there all the way back into the wine cellar and locks the door behind him, closing this other guy into this room. He's like, you know what? [00:38:10] Speaker D: Two can play that game. [00:38:11] Speaker A: Like, if you're gonna do this to my friend, you. They go back to the table, okay? Michael is on another level now, okay? He's pissed. He started drinking liquor again. His wife is mad at him, and he so hates Helene's black boyfriend that he is so, like, pissed about his very presence that he starts singing a song that I will not be repeating the words to that is incredibly racist towards black people, and I will absolutely not be entertaining that on here. And Helene is like. He's. He doesn't speak Danish, presumably, Like, not. At least not well, because he speaks in English the whole time. But Helene understands what this song is, and she rightfully so, is defending her partner and the disrespect. And so she leaves the table, and she goes to find a restroom. And Pia actually accompanies her. And so she's, like, so distraught. She's flailing around, she's crying, she's yelling, and Pia is just trying to be there to comfort her. Eventually, she tells Pia, like, look, I have such a bad headache. Can you please go get my pills for me? And, you know, I'll take them and don't worry about Christian anymore, because he's gone. So Pia leaves to go get the pills, and Helene collapses on the floor of the bathroom just, like, in tears. She is so upset, and she's like, I can't take this. This. [00:39:57] Speaker D: So now, remember what I said earlier. [00:39:58] Speaker A: About how, you know, Helene found the note from her sister Linda, and she folded it up and put it in a pill bottle? So when Pia goes into Helene's room to get the pills, she finds the note. And so we're left wondering, was Helene asking her to go get her pills with the knowledge that she would find this note? I think so. I think so. I think that's why she was so distraught about, you know, distraught after Pia left the bathroom is because she knew what she was about to do. And lucky for Christian, you know, off in the woods alone, Michael and them boys tie shitty knots. So he just undoes his, you know, his hands, and he stands up and walks away. [00:40:56] Speaker C: Apparently, it's a family tradition on people's birthdays that they, you know, the entire party must participate in some sort of, like, conga line and song around the house or around the property? And so while this is going on, Helene is looking very distressed, like, oh, my God, is she gonna find that note? And is she gonna give it to. To Christian or, like, what's gonna happen from here? [00:41:28] Speaker A: And so as they make their way around the house, around the property, Christian appears in the foyer. Pia had given him the note. Somehow, when all this has been transpiring. [00:41:43] Speaker C: And he hands it to Helene as she passes by in this, like, conga line and says, I think you dropped something. So she takes that, and she goes. [00:41:54] Speaker A: Back to her room, and she starts to pack her bags. She doesn't want to be here anymore. And this whole thing has just been, you know, quite literally, the most traumatic, like, family event, aside from what Christian and Linda went through. [00:42:12] Speaker C: But, like, to her, this tops everything. I guess, as is tradition with this. [00:42:20] Speaker A: Family as well, after they do this dance around the. The home and. Or wherever they're staying or wherever this. [00:42:27] Speaker C: Is happening at, someone writes a secret speech, and it's given to the toastmaster and the toastmaster for the evening, just so happens to be Helmuth, right? [00:42:40] Speaker A: This German boy who has. Or he's a man now, but who has assumed the role of a son of sorts to the family. [00:42:50] Speaker C: And I'm sure you'll never believe this, but it's Linda's letter that she wrote. So Helmuth opens it. Of course, it's intended to be a surprise speech, and he begins to read. A man urges his sister to read the letter to his father. And they're like, oh, a letter. And Helmeth says, you know, I think Helene is just too shy to start, but in any event, it's kind of your brother to help you get started here. And it seems that now, once again, the family is at peace. So let's give Helene a hand. And she is, like, dead behind the eyes, petrified, in shock, like, cannot believe what is happening. And she actually tries to leave until, you know, someone stops her and is like, look, don't be shy. Just do this, please. And Christian comes back into the room, and they're like, look, Michael, everybody, like, just pretend like he's not here. So the paper makes its way back to Helene, and she says, this is from my sister. So she begins to read the actual contents of this, you know, note. You're probably my sister or my brother because you must be good at getting warmer, which is a game that they used to play when they were kids. I know it must be so sad to find me in a bathtub full of water, but it isn't so sad for me. I know that you brothers and sister are happy, radiant people and that I love you, and I think you should just not think about me, Christian, my beloved brother, who has always been with me. Thank you for everything. I don't want to mix you up in this. I love you too much for that. And you, Helene, and you, Michael, of course. You nut. Dad has begun having me again in my dreams anyway, and I can't bear it anymore. I'm going away now, as I probably should always have done. I know it will fill your life with darkness. Christian, I tried to phone you, but I know that you're busy. I just want to tell you not to be sad. I think there is beauty and light on the other side. I'm looking forward to it, as a matter of fact, although, of course, I am a bit afraid. Afraid of leaving without you. I love you forever. Linda. That is a beautiful letter. Honestly broke my heart. I really do like to know that, you know, she was going through so much pain and that she took the time to write this down. And that, you know, their dad had previously, earlier in the film, you know, had begun to tell Christian that, like, she said goodbye to everybody. She just didn't say goodbye to you because you weren't here. But she actually did write him a very beautiful note that was intended, really, only for him, I'm sure. And he got the closure that he needed from his twin sister. And everybody is again at the table, just really confused. [00:46:42] Speaker A: They've heard so much about this throughout the evening. And dad is just like, wow, that was a really beautiful letter. [00:46:50] Speaker C: Can somebody pour my daughter some wine so that I can drink a toast with her for reading that? I just want to drink a toast with my daughter for reading my dead daughter's suicide note at dinner. Like, that's. That's perfect. Oh, and by the way, it's my fault, so we should especially have a toast. He keeps repeating, you know, for somebody to pour her a toast. Until, like, he realizes finally, that nobody's gonna do it because nobody's gonna move. Because everybody is in such shock over this letter that no one is willing to participate in this anymore. And he is enraged. He asks if, if and why it's his fault that he has such talentless offspring. And Christian is just like, look, I just really never understood why you did it. You didn't have to do it. And his dad says, it was all. [00:47:51] Speaker B: You were good for. [00:47:56] Speaker C: And he gets up and he leaves. Imagine you telling your kid that all that they were good for is to rape, and your own wife follows out. [00:48:10] Speaker A: After you in some act of support and, like, obedience. [00:48:17] Speaker C: It's fucking disgusting. [00:48:21] Speaker A: This whole thing is fucking disgusting, honestly. [00:48:27] Speaker C: God bless Lars for his participation and. [00:48:31] Speaker A: Patience in the evening, because he really is way more patient than I ever would have been. Christian is like, finally, like, okay, for real. Like, I gotta go now. Like, I'm leaving. I Got what I wanted and I don't wanna. I'm done. [00:48:48] Speaker C: So he goes to walk toward, you know, the front desk to talk to Lars, and he's, like, dizzy, and he, like, can't really stand upright. And so he says, like, can I please have a glass of water? And Lars is like, well, you don't. [00:49:03] Speaker A: Look well, so should I call a doctor? [00:49:08] Speaker C: Poor Christian. After all this, like, adrenaline and, like, you know, this release of just, like. [00:49:14] Speaker A: Satisfaction that he got what he needed, passes out, and he has this beautiful. [00:49:19] Speaker C: Vision of his sister Linda and them, you know, reuniting. And they're hugging and, you know, they're saying, I miss you and I love you. And they, you know, just embrace beautifully. It's. It's. It's wonderful. And when we see Christian next again, he is in his room, actually, with Pia, God bless her for being there for him. And he wakes up to the phone ringing. It's Helene calling from her room. And she's like, hey, sorry, I didn't mean to wake you up. But, like, now we have another problem because Michael is gone and we can't find him. So because the family, like, owns the property that they're all staying at, they actually have, like, a separate house off to the, you know, the side of the property so that they can have their own living space. [00:50:16] Speaker A: And so we see Michael, God bless. [00:50:20] Speaker C: Him, he is actually walking to his dad's house. He is so drunk, he can literally barely stand up or walk. But Michael, for Michael, it's go time. Michael bangs on the door until his parents come, and he, you know, drags his dad out of the door, across the threshold and starts beating the. Out of him. Which, like, I mean, are we upset by that? I mean, I'm not. He is literally beating up his own dad. I'm. I'm so here for this. And he makes his dad lay down face first on just gravel, rocks, and he's like, I don't want to hear any more of your. Okay. You're never going to see your grandkids again. You're never going to see them. You literally cannot be around children. You're disgusting. This family is. This is like, I. [00:51:27] Speaker D: This. [00:51:28] Speaker A: There's nothing else to say. And how could you do this back inside the, you know, the. The larger property, Right. Because Michael had disappeared. His wife was very upset, and so they couldn't find him, right? So, like, Helene had called Christian. And so Helene and her boyfriend Christian and Pia and Michael's wife all decided to be in, like, the. I don't know. Like, the piano room, basically, to wait up for him to come back or, like, you know, kind of figure out what they were going to do next. But really they were just hoping he would come back. And so they had been playing the piano and dancing and whatnot, and they have no knowledge of what Michael is outside doing to their dad. So their mom comes in through the door and is, like, sobbing, and she's like, they can't just do this. So they all go running out and, you know, towards the. The house that their parents live in. And Christian pushes Michael off of their dad, and he's almost, like, kind of. [00:52:41] Speaker D: Just basically checking to make sure that. [00:52:43] Speaker C: He'S not, like, dead, even though I don't really know why he would care at this point. But his dad looks at him and says, you're killing me. [00:52:54] Speaker B: You're. [00:52:55] Speaker C: You're killing me. [00:52:57] Speaker A: The next morning at breakfast, you know, everybody is kind of, still, like, not really sure what is going on or, like, how to handle this. But what they all do know is that the siblings are acting, you know, they're interacting very pleasantly with one another, which is beautiful because they previously hadn't been. And they're all in relatively good moods. [00:53:21] Speaker D: After all that they have accomplished over. [00:53:23] Speaker A: You know, the last 12 hours. And Pia gets her moment of, you know, clarity with Christian when he stops her while she's pouring him, you know, a drink for breakfast. And he asks her if she wants. [00:53:41] Speaker C: To come to Paris to live with him, and she says yes. [00:53:47] Speaker A: Everything seems to be fine with everyone having breakfast together until mom and dad decide to join. And so when they do, they, you. [00:54:03] Speaker C: Know, try to be pleasant in the morning. [00:54:05] Speaker A: And, you know, at first, one of Michael's daughters actually runs over to her grandfather, and innocently, of course, and she wants to sit on his lap and have him read her a book. And as soon as she makes contact with his body, Michael is like, yep, nope, we're not doing that. You should come over here with me. And that's the end of that. And now it's time for dad to make a little toast, which I'm sure we've all been patiently waiting for out there. He says, I know it's an unsuitable moment you're having breakfast. I'll try to be as brief as I can. I just want to say that I know that when you pack up and. [00:54:52] Speaker C: Go home. [00:54:55] Speaker A: It will be the last time that I see you. I also see now that what I did to my children is unforgivable. I know that all of you, especially my children, will Hate me for the rest of your lives. All the same, I want to tell you that you'll always be my children. And I have loved you and still love you, no matter where in the world you are or what you do. [00:55:27] Speaker C: To you. [00:55:27] Speaker A: Christian, I want to say. [00:55:32] Speaker C: You fought. [00:55:33] Speaker A: A good fight, my boy. Thank you. [00:55:40] Speaker C: And he sits back down, and that's all he has to say. I mean, can you fucking believe this guy? Seriously, it's almost. It's. It's actually impressive. So Michael gets up and is like, you know what? Good speech, dad. Great speech. And so, you know, we're gonna go now, or you can leave, and then we'll stay here and have breakfast. But, like, we can't all be in the same room. And so dad gets up, he dismisses himself, and mom stays at the table as if she's somehow innocent in this whole thing. And, like, has no reason to believe that her kids or anyone else would be upset with her. And that, my friends, is where the celebration ends. [00:56:33] Speaker A: So, quite the film. But now is the time where we're going to ask ourselves, you know, Carolyn, there's really not a lot of room for gray area in here. And so what are we going to talk about today? [00:56:49] Speaker C: I want to talk about a couple things. I want to talk about the absolute. [00:56:55] Speaker A: Tragedy that is child sexual abuse and incest in particular. And I also want to talk about how incest is portrayed in film because it's actually not as common as you might think it is. So I think it's important to highlight this and really show you and explain to you why I thought this film was so important to talk to you about today. And before I do that, I just want to kind of explain, like, if you've never seen this film, I would say, you know, please, for the love of God, it's so good. Please watch it. But this film was also important for another reason, which is this film is the very first film that is, you know, in the Dogma 95. And if you're not familiar with Dogma 95, the Dogma 95 is a Danish avant garde filmmaking movement founded by none other than Thomas Vinterberg himself, director of the film here. And, you know, Lars von Trier, who is everybody's favorite and is not controversial at all. And so basically what this Dogma was designed to do is create, you know, some rules of traditional story, act and theme, and do all of this while excluding special effects and technology. So it was about to be. [00:58:36] Speaker D: It was. [00:58:36] Speaker C: It was intended to be a way. [00:58:38] Speaker A: For artists, right, to take the power back and give the studios less power over film. [00:58:49] Speaker C: So I think that that's really interesting. You may not, but there are. This is important because of how popular these two directors have become and how. [00:59:04] Speaker A: It really demonstrates that, yes, you can absolutely make an effective and wonderful film without the use of cgi. Right. Like it. [00:59:12] Speaker D: There's. [00:59:13] Speaker A: There's so many ways to do it. And it was kind of considered a defining period in the production of low budget film. Right. They've had experimental projects. They've, you know, they've. It's kind of now been interpreted as more of like a. A brand or a genre rather than a manifesto that they should abide by. But this movement actually broke up in 2005. [00:59:45] Speaker C: But you may be wondering what are the goals and rules of dogma 95? [00:59:52] Speaker A: And I will tell you. The goal of the Dogma as a collective was to quote, unquote, purify filmmaking by completely refusing special effects, expensive and spectacular effects, any modifications done post production and other technical like gimmicks or like. [01:00:15] Speaker C: Things that you just see all the time now. And that everything is all about the story and the performances of the actors and basically nothing else. [01:00:30] Speaker A: So Here are the 10 rules. Rule 1. Shooting must be done on location. Props and sets must not be brought in. If a particular prop is necessary for the story, a location must be chosen where this prop is to be found. Rule 2. Sound must never be produced apart from the image or vice versa. Music must not be used unless it occurs where the scene is being shot. [01:01:03] Speaker C: 3. [01:01:04] Speaker A: The camera must be handheld. Any movement or immobility attainable in the hand is permitted. [01:01:14] Speaker C: 4. The film must be in color. [01:01:17] Speaker A: Special lighting is not acceptable if there. [01:01:20] Speaker C: Is too little light for exposure. [01:01:22] Speaker A: The scene must be cut or a single lamp be attached to the camera, but nothing else. [01:01:30] Speaker C: 5. [01:01:30] Speaker A: Optical work and filters are forbidden. [01:01:34] Speaker C: 6. [01:01:35] Speaker A: The film must not contain superficial action like murders, weapons, etc. These must not occur. [01:01:46] Speaker D: 7. [01:01:47] Speaker C: Temporal and geographical alienation are forbidden. That is to say that the film takes place here and now. 8. Genre movies are not acceptable. 9. The film format must be Academy 35 millimeter. 10. The director must not be credited. And they take a vow of chastity to say. [01:02:17] Speaker A: Furthermore, I swear as a director to refrain from personal taste. I am no longer an artist. I swear to refrain from creating a work as I regard the instant as more important than the whole. My supreme goal is to force the truth out of my characters and settings. I swear to do so by all the means available and at the cost of any good taste and Any aesthetic considerations. Thus I make my vow of chastity. Pretty interesting, right? There are only 35 films that are considered to be part of this movement. And you may recognize, you know, a few of them, notably, obviously, the Celebration, which is the very first Dogma film. And there are of course the works of Mr. Lars von Trier. He created the Golden Heart trilogy, which consisted of Breaking the Waves, the Idiot, which was Dogma 2, and Dancer in the Dark. But only the Idiots is a certified Dogma 95 film because breaking the Waves and Dancer in the Dark are sometimes associated or heavily laid out with the movement is what this article says. [01:03:45] Speaker D: So there's a pretty like good, you. [01:03:48] Speaker A: Know, article on this. I'm gonna link it for you. I really think that this is important and really frames like what you're seeing is weird. Like it is weird. Like these films are weird. But that is not to say that they're bad. It actually just goes to prove to you, like, how good they actually are. But anyway, I couldn't, I couldn't continue on with this conversation without first informing you of that because of how much it influenced this film and you know, Thomas Vinterberg and Lars von Trier's filmmaking for the rest of their, their careers. And that you will find right in the remainder of their films that like, some of these elements are there, just not all of them. [01:04:37] Speaker B: So I think it's important to like level set here a little bit. And in doing so, I think we need to talk exactly about what, you know, is kind of going on here. And the root of this film is, you know, about the incestuous relationship between a father and his children. [01:04:57] Speaker D: And notice that he didn't do this. [01:04:59] Speaker B: To all of his children. He only did this to his twins. Right, which would be Linda and Christian. So what exactly is incest? Right, we should define it. I'm gonna link a really detailed article for you all from patient.info about incest. And it includes pretty much all the information that you could really want on a surface level, including additional resources and readings. So here incest is defined as sexual activity with a person from within the immediate family. It is often considered synonymous with intrafamilial sexual abuse. Although the broader term incest can include consensual and non consensual relationships between adults who are related to one another. The exact relationships which can be construed as incest will vary from culture to culture. Sexual relationships between first degree relatives are a universal taboo in modern cultures, as are sexual relationships between between second degree relatives. The acceptability of sexual activity and marriage between first cousins varies substantially between cultures. In some, it is considered incest and forbidden, whereas in others, it is viewed favorably and encouraged. And funny enough, back in 1891, you might notice, for example, that if you have siblings, you are, like, automatically deterred by their scent or the pheromones that they, you know, excrete and everything about them, right? And there's a reason for that, right? Like, biologically, you're not supposed to be attracted in that way to your siblings. So there's, like, a natural instinct there. This is referred to as the Westermark hypothesis. And so it's that, you know, humans essentially develop strong sexual aversions to individuals. [01:07:03] Speaker D: With whom they live closely with during childhood and infancy, which is usually siblings and parents. [01:07:10] Speaker B: There's no, like, empirical evidence to support this. But that might be. That might be why, like, if you have an older brother, you can't imagine. [01:07:17] Speaker D: Them ever finding a partner who loves them and wants to be with them. [01:07:21] Speaker B: Intimately because you think that they smell so bad or that you're so grossed out by them or that, like, there's so many things about them that are, like, inherently adverse to you. And so, yeah, just a level set there. [01:07:39] Speaker D: And in terms of how common, right. [01:07:42] Speaker B: Incest is, I'll tell you that it's not that common in film. That I will tell you. And I will also tell you that as evidenced here, right, because we didn't see or have much knowledge of the incest between Linda and their dad. But we do have Christian there who is telling, you know, detailed accounts of incidents in which he was, you know, forced or coerced into having sexual relations with their dad in other films, right? Like, let's say, let's. [01:08:19] Speaker C: Let's. [01:08:19] Speaker B: Let's talk about how, you know, male, young sexual experiences are often depicted in film, right? I'm gonna link a really, really, really in depth article here for you, written by Richard Gartner. He is a psychologist and an expert witness. And he specializes in things that are all surrounding, you know, father to son. [01:08:46] Speaker D: Male to male, incestuous relationships. And so it's interesting when we see, you know, he talks about maternal incest in film, right? And here's where it gets weird, right? In the celebration, when we're talking about this relationship, we're talking about how disgusting it is and how, like, it's so crazy that Christian is even bringing this up, like, to the point that people don't even believe it at first. [01:09:18] Speaker B: Because how crazy does that sound? Especially at a birthday party that you're hearing this. But if we talk about another film right on the Criterion list as well. [01:09:32] Speaker D: Murmur of the Heart. [01:09:34] Speaker B: Murmur of the Heart is a French film which involves a young 14, 15. [01:09:40] Speaker D: Year old boy named Laurent who lives. [01:09:42] Speaker B: With his two older brothers, his father, who's a gynecologist, and his mother. And his mom is like, often absent from the family. She goes off and has an extramarital affair with like a lover. And it's not really understood whether or not like the, the dad knows that this is happening or really anybody in the family knows that this is happening. Laurent knows that it's happening because after he was walking home from school one day, he actually saw his mom get into this man's car. So he's actually aware of it. [01:10:21] Speaker D: But in this film, right, we have Laurent has these two older brothers and. [01:10:27] Speaker B: These two older brothers take him one night to a, essentially a brothel, right? And so they kind of tell him like, you know, hey, we're going to pay for this for you. And keep in mind he's, he's like 14 or 15, so that's where this is going. They're telling him like, we're going to. [01:10:48] Speaker D: Pay for this for you. [01:10:49] Speaker B: Like, it's going to be a great experience. And so they pay for, you know, him to be intimate with one of the prostitutes, the women that work there. So he is really nervous, obviously, as I think anybody would be, especially like, I've never been to a place like. [01:11:08] Speaker D: That and I certainly never went to. [01:11:10] Speaker B: A place like that when I was 14 or 15. [01:11:13] Speaker D: And so he goes into like the bedroom of this woman that has been paid to entertain him for the evening. And, and she says that she specializes in, you know, taking the virginity of young men. And she comments on how young his age is and how, you know, like fresh he is and bright eyed and bushy tailed and that she's like interested in him for that reason. And. [01:11:47] Speaker C: It'S. [01:11:50] Speaker D: Like the whole scene is. [01:11:53] Speaker C: Strange because I think it, I think. [01:11:54] Speaker D: It was intended to be funny, but it wasn't funny to me. And so he starts to engage in this, you know, sexual act with this prostitute. And then his two brothers sneak in and like, you know, watch him do this. And he turns around and sees them and is obviously and notably like embarrassed from this. And so he doesn't like actually finish the act. And so he kind of feels like he was robbed of that experience. And we're totally glossing over the fact, by the way, that this is like illegal and that he's like not an adult so that's number one. The film gets worse, though, right? Of course it does, because he is then diagnosed with a heart murmur. And so he goes to this, like, sanatorium, like, this beautiful spa vacation with his mom, where they stay in the same hotel room. And, you know, he's getting treatment for this heart murmur. And his mom is, like, really young, and she's gorgeous. And, like, all the girls tell him, like, we want to be like your mom when we grow up. She's so beautiful. We can only hope to be as pretty as her. And then the boys, right, some of the boys are, like, trying to ask her to, like, play tennis with them or, like, talk about how hot she. [01:13:25] Speaker B: Is and all these different things, right? [01:13:27] Speaker D: So everyone is always, like, after his mom, including her. Her lover that she left behind whenever they went to go to this. This treatment center. And this whole time throughout the film, you watch that, Laurent and his mom have, like, what I would consider, like, a really close and, like, kind of beautiful relationship where, like, he wants to hug her. He always wants to, like, have her around. He wants to, you know, have her tuck him into bed every night, and he wants her to hang out with him whenever he's in bed before he goes to treatment for his heart murmur, like, all these things. And so I would consider them to have a pretty close and, like, you know, honestly beautiful relationship. And then towards the end of the film, like, pretty much in the last 10 minutes, it. Things take a turn whenever they. Eventually, because they are sleeping in the same hotel room, she is, like, they had been drinking. They went to a party, and she's kind of sad because she had broken things off with her lover, and she is, you know, in bed with her eyes closed, but she's not sleeping yet. And Laurent joins her in bed and begins to undress her and kiss her, and the two have sex. He has sex with his mom, and she goes on this, you know, whole speech at the end about how, you know, they. [01:15:15] Speaker A: They. [01:15:15] Speaker D: They don't want to remember this as a bad thing. They want to remember this as, like, something beautiful and full of love, and, like, they want to just remember this as something beautiful and nothing more and that it'll never happen again. Now, what's interesting about this is that when this was originally shown in the United States in the early 1970s and later again in 1989, Murmur of the Heart was considered a charming and ironic Gallic questioning of traditional ideas about the bad effects of mother son incest. An article in New York Newsday called the film wonderful. And charming. The New York Post called it enticing and invigorating Oedipal comedy that deals with incest delicately and maturely. They also go on to say that, you know, the director makes it perfectly clear that neither Laurent nor Clara will suffer any long lasting ill effects of what comes across as indiscretion rather than depravity. Another article wrote that the incest act is, quote, presented as a positive, indeed a lovely and touching moment in his life, a stage, stage in a natural cycle. Okay? That is how it is depicted, you know, a lot of times for boys in maternal son incest. Right? Like, why are we viewing this as a positive experience? I even read somewhere else that this is considered to be like a coming of age story. Like, I'm so sorry, coming of age stories are meant to be relatable. And I can tell you, and I think I speak on behalf of most, you know, boys in the world, that coming of age does not typically involve your brothers taking you to a brothel at the age of 15 and having an older woman prey upon them while also simultaneously lusting, in a way, after their own mom and successfully engaging in sexual intercourse with their mother. I don't believe that that is relatable in any form or fashion. And I do not believe that this, you know, the pedophilic undertones, particularly of the scene in the brothel are like something that anybody should relate to. Right. Like, if you've gone through some trauma and maybe you were a victim of child sexual abuse and you see this film and maybe like something similar happened to you, you might find this, I don't know, cathartic in a way, but certainly not the broader population who has not been a victim of this form of child sexual abuse. And, you know, rape, you know, statutory rape. That's what it is. Like that, that's not something that. [01:18:33] Speaker C: Should. [01:18:33] Speaker D: Be considered like coming of age then when it comes to, you know, the, like, the commonality of, of incest. Right. It's noted here in the patient.info article that, you know, sexual abuse between siblings is usually recognized as being the most common, and it's documented as being five times more common than father or stepfather abuse. Father daughter incest was reported by 2.5% of female participants in a anonymous survey and one study in Scandinavia in particular, which is, you know, telling obviously for where the celebration takes place is that girls were victims in 85% of the cases, boys in 12%, and boys as well as girls in three. Sexual penetration had occurred in 53.7% of cases and there was genital or other physical manipulation in 29.6%. Most perpetrators, 72% of them were well known to the child. In 16.7% of cases there was no physical contact, but there was some kind of non contact molestation or exhibitionism. And that the most severe violations regarded as the ones where there was sexual penetration involved were significantly more often committed by biological relatives, household members or family members rather than by strangers. Okay, so this is definitely something that happens in the world, right. And so is it like, you know, the most common thing in the world to occur? [01:20:36] Speaker A: No. [01:20:37] Speaker D: Is it still common enough that we can recognize it and we like, can unders. Like we can understand what that relationship might look like and why that relationship is wrong? Yes. And so I think it's really interesting here that, you know, as Richard Gartner chooses to argue that like the way that that then gets depicted later in films is that like when it's between a mother or an adult woman and a child male, then it's considered to be like a coming of age and. [01:21:13] Speaker B: Like a sexual type of. [01:21:18] Speaker D: I don't know, like a awakening, I guess. Whereas if it's between a father and a son, like it is in the celebration, it's considered to be the opposite. Right. It's like considered somehow even more depraved. So interesting the way that it's depicted in film. And if you haven't seen Murmur of the Heart and you think I'm lying about, you know, the way that it's shown, I would highly consider watching it yourself and letting me know what you think, because I didn't think anything in that film had anything to do with anything that, you know, is considered, quote, unquote, normal in the upbringing of a child. So now I think it's appropriate to talk about the why. Why does this happen? I'm going to link an article for you all from the CEOP Education. It's a website, you know, an organization from the uk and it is all about, you know, sexual abuse, child sexual grooming and things of the like. So they identify that there's a range of factors for when someone decides to sexually abuse a child. And there's, you know, a range of factors that play a part. So one factor would be desire. And so they note that sexual enjoyment can be a motive for abusing a child. But it is not the only one. And there are usually other ones at play. And the other motives people might have to abuse a child include wanting to control someone and feel powerful, manage or act out Difficult emotions gain status in the eyes of others, hurt someone for pleasure or feel close to someone. And they often note that most child abusers are not, like, only sexually interested in children, but they target children for sexual abuse because they're more vulnerable than adults. They also note that delusions are at play. And they may tell themselves that, you know, they are more important than the children that they abuse or that the abuse isn't harmful or that they deserve it or are entitled to it. They may argue that part of being a man is being sexually dominant if the abuser is a male. And they may also try to say that the child consented, which is notably a delusion, because children cannot consent. So it's interesting here because delusion definitely plays a factor in the abuse of Christian and Linda, right? They wanted to know why them, right? There were other children in the home. They were not experiencing these things, but Christian and Linda were. And their dad tells Christian that it was all that they were good for, that that was all a child those children were good for. And that doesn't make sense to me. You know, children are good for so many things, right? I can't conceive of how the only thing that would be, you know, worthy of childhood would be that, like, you have to participate in an incestuous relationship with your father. That is not something that I can. I can wrap my head around. But what's even more interesting is that we talked a little bit earlier about how the, you know, the participants at the dinner party are so shocked by what it is that they're hearing every time Christian stands up to speak that they almost, like, they have no other way of reacting other than to just, like, ignore it, basically. And, you know, Christian is trying to tell them the truth, but in every attempt to do so, the reactions from the guests further, like, reinforce the father's denial by them, like, not believing it. So then we have to ask ourselves, like, is this something that people don't take seriously? Is it something that people claim to take seriously but don't actually take seriously? There's a lot of questions surrounding this, right? And so. And in particular, like, the, you know, the reactions of other people involved, right? And the mother in particular, right? Because their mom is just also falling into this, like, pattern of, like, oh, like, Christian stood up again and said something, but, like, I don't believe it because no one else is believing it. And when Christian eventually brings up that she herself had actually seen one of these events take place and chose to ignore it, she's now become implicated it's almost like she feels that if she didn't acknowledge that that happened or that she saw something happen, that she is not going to be caught up in whatever the downfall is or the fallout is of all of this, you know, information being revealed. And additionally, I want to highlight, there is an article called Child Sexual Abuse Attributions. Are they different depending on mothers versus father's reactions. And they actually, you know, study this in detail. And what's really interesting that they found is that, you know, they note that the behavior of the victim is, you know, plays a part. For example, the victim's ambivalent feelings towards the perpetrator together with the child's fear of the disclosure's consequences, which would be something like fear of social reactions of disbelief and the need to protect the family, specifically the non abusive parent may explore, explain these difficulties and additionally their credibility may be questioned. [01:28:03] Speaker A: Right. [01:28:04] Speaker D: If the, how do you say it? Like if the relationship between the two parties is already not that good, right? Like Christian and his dad don't have like a good relationship. And we know that that's because of what happened when they were children. But like, we don't know how long that's been going on, but we can tell that like through his adult life certainly he has not had a good relationship with, with his parent. And so because of this, it often leads to reportedly people questioning the credibility of said victim if the relationship is already strained between the two parties. And you know, I think that's really interesting because rather than people assuming like, oh my God, they're bringing this up and they don't have a good relationship with their dad, it must be because of this. But no, they actually think the opposite. They think, oh, okay, well like you don't have a good relationship with your dad, so you just want to sabotage him. Interesting, right? And they also found that specifically in cases of intra familial child sexual abuse, fathers, right, and parental figures are more likely to be perpetrators. They are also more likely to be excused and exonerated than mothers and maternal figures within the family. And this is attributed to the fact that once a person becomes a mother, they are, you know, assumed and pressured and sometimes forced even to assume the role as the complete and total, you know, leader of what it is for the, the children in the home. And so it's almost like mothers are supposed to be the protectors and fathers are not. And when a mother does not protect increased, you know, scrutiny from other parties. And I think that that's interesting because it's almost like when the film is, you know, progressing and we see that, you know, the dad finally leaves the party for the night and goes back to, you know, him. Him and his wife's home on the property, she follows him out. And the way that that film or that piece of the film is shot is almost like. To say that, like, she is just as guilty, if not more guilty than he is because she knew that this was happening and she did nothing to stop it. And on top of that, she's still choosing not to take the side of her children and be there to protect them. And so it's often that, like, the. The. Even if the father were the perpetrator, the mother is the one that gets all the blame because she should have been the one that protected. And I'm not entirely sure why we don't put the same responsibility on fathers, that both mothers and fathers have the obligation to protect their children equally and that it doesn't lie solely on one parent more so than the other. So with all of this in mind, I think that it's important that we recognize that, you know, this is something that occurs in the world today and will likely, unfortunately, continue to occur in the world. And that when we see, you know, the sexual victimization of boys and minor males in film, when it's at the hands of, like, a heterosexual interaction between a woman and a man, then it's considered to be a positive. And it's considered to be something to be celebrated. And it's considered, like, their sexual awakening. And, like, it's something that, like, should we should be, like, jealous of? I guess, in a way, when that's not the case, it's still rape. It's still, you know, it's. They're still a victim. They were still the victim of a predator, regardless of how this came to be. Regardless of if they were at a brothel, bro. Or if they were at home or, like, if they were in, I don't know, the wrong place at the wrong time, like, it really doesn't matter. But every time in film, between this and the boys of St. Vincent and, you know, a number of other films, although very rare, Primal Fear is another one where the perpetrator is a male against their son. Then this is considered to be not positive. And this is considered to be not something that we should aim for as a society and something that we should not be jealous of, but something that we should be angry about. And I guess the whole point of talking about the celebration today is that I wanted to take a deeper dive into why These things happen, and, you know, we know why they happen in the real world by now, because I've already talked about that. But I also want to have some further exploration done in the way that it's portrayed in film, because regardless of who the perpetrator is and regardless of who the victim is, it's still harmful. It actually really doesn't matter. And we're not talking about two adults engaging in an act of incest, because I'm not qualified to talk about that. I don't feel, especially given, you know. [01:34:10] Speaker A: That I haven't really. [01:34:11] Speaker D: I don't really know much about it. But in terms of, like, child sexual abuse at the hands of a parent and incest, like, that's something that we all, you know, have working knowledge of, I would assume, and something that we all can come together and say is disgusting. And frankly, I think the reason that Christian, you know, chose not to speak about this for so long is because he was likely waiting for the death of his sister Linda, to talk about it. If, for example, he had brought it up while she was alive, still, she would have to rally with him, you know, to. To be seen as a. A combined front and like a unifying front. And she may not have wanted to do that. Like, she may not have wanted anyone to know that about her while she was alive. And so he basically waits for her death to give her the opportunity to not be implicated in what he's about to do. She no longer is suffering. He's the one who has to live with the consequences of his actions. She doesn't have to live at the consequences of his actions anymore. So for him, this was a way for people to know what happened and for people to know why his sister killed herself and took her life. And for people to recognize that, you know, in a way, you're almost all complicit because none of you, especially the ones who saw it firsthand, did anything to stop it. And Christian likely lived a life of, you know, somewhat embarrassment, I would assume, because that's something that often you read when, you know, people are victims of incest. They will say things like they were embarrassed to tell someone about it or like it was an embarrassing part of their life. And I, for one, don't think it's embarrassing, especially if it happened to you. If it happened to you, it happened. Like, we need to. We need to acknowledge that those things happen in life and not make them even more taboo by not talking about them. But what's, you know, for Christian here? This is his, you know, final act of vengeance against his parents. And this is something that unites him with his two other living siblings in a way that they really hadn't been united before. So that is the celebration. And I hope you all really enjoyed this episode as much as I enjoyed bringing it to you. Of course. Before I go, I have to remind you that the final girl on 6th Avenue is part of the Morbidly Beautiful Network. [01:37:09] Speaker B: We are your home for horror. [01:37:11] Speaker D: If you love horror in any way, shape or form, then you're welcome with us and you can find my podcast and many others like it@morbidly beautiful.com youm can find this podcast on Google Podcasts, Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music and Pocket Casts. If you enjoyed the show, it would mean the world to me if you left me a five star review and subscribe to the show wherever you get your podcasts. Thank you so much for listening. I will be back with you very, very shortly and stay safe out there. Never Forget that I'm 6th Avenue's very own final Girl. [01:38:01] Speaker A: It.